Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 I’m kindof amazed that Mozilla can’t distinguish which changes led to the backlash. I think that’s why this whole thing feels more like putting on a show than like a genuine attempt at reform.
The timing alone makes it clear that the builtin translation was not the issue. Sure, moving it to a plugin would be an improvement, and requiring user action to enable it would be smaller improvement, but that was the case before.
️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The main issue is Mozilla as an organization embracing the lie that LLMs possess something resembling human intelligence, welcoming the full variety of harms caused by their implementation and use, integrating their use into unnecessary “features”, and enabling those “features” both by default and reverting them to enabled after updates.️ -
@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The main issue is Mozilla as an organization embracing the lie that LLMs possess something resembling human intelligence, welcoming the full variety of harms caused by their implementation and use, integrating their use into unnecessary “features”, and enabling those “features” both by default and reverting them to enabled after updates.️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ After y’all lied to us, encouraged harm to us, set us up to add to that harm, and reverted us to that setup after we opted out, we don’t trust you anymore.It’s alright to address lesser issues like the builtin translation, but that doesn’t address the main issue or rebuild any trust.
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@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ After y’all lied to us, encouraged harm to us, set us up to add to that harm, and reverted us to that setup after we opted out, we don’t trust you anymore.It’s alright to address lesser issues like the builtin translation, but that doesn’t address the main issue or rebuild any trust.
️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The best thing you could do in Firefox is to completely remove the “AI” “features” that are built on the lie and contributing to the harm. The next best would be to move them to plugins that are not installed by default. The next best is the “kill switch”, but with “killed” as the default, and ideally, as you say, not a single switch but a set of them.️ -
@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The best thing you could do in Firefox is to completely remove the “AI” “features” that are built on the lie and contributing to the harm. The next best would be to move them to plugins that are not installed by default. The next best is the “kill switch”, but with “killed” as the default, and ideally, as you say, not a single switch but a set of them.️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ But that alone won’t be enough to rebuild trust; I’d like to suggest something that would help with that, but unfortunately that’s far outside my wheelhouse
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@firefoxwebdevs I also like the idea of having all such features as extensions rather than built in features, so they can be explicitly turned on by people who want to.
Would really make the product clearly stand out from others
@hdv
"Make it a setting" sounds nice but no one considers the cost to users from having too many settings in UIs.What a like about Firefox is people who really want to change all kinds of default behavior can do so through about:config and other means of altering those prefs.
The translation feature has been there for a while, is good for all the reasons you listed, and is fundamentally different from the LLMs, which are what people mean by "AI" today. Its pop-up panel already has a setting to stop it popping up any more and if someone doesn't even want to see the address bar icon, I'm sure there's something in about:config for that.
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@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I fixed it.
Do you want AI slop in Firefox?
@theorangetheme @davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs If Firefox isn't willing to cut out AI (fuck levers and knobs), then stop calling it Firefox.
Let the legacy of user trust and privacy end and stop lying to people. Mozilla is a company, the browser is a product, and you (Moz Org and Foundation) have no interest in consumer rights.
Mozilla's battlecry should be "Shut up, download the free browser, and let us watch everything you do." Because we're not your customers anymore. Stockholders and advertisers are.
Your next poll: How can (browser not Firefox) bring you ads and save you money when shopping?" That is what you want to ask, so do it.
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@firefoxwebdevs what about an "AI enable" switch that is off by default
that would be cool
@DrJosh9000 if they made it an easter egg loot box thing there are people who'd probably be racing to be the first to turn it on @firefoxwebdevs
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@theorangetheme @davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs If Firefox isn't willing to cut out AI (fuck levers and knobs), then stop calling it Firefox.
Let the legacy of user trust and privacy end and stop lying to people. Mozilla is a company, the browser is a product, and you (Moz Org and Foundation) have no interest in consumer rights.
Mozilla's battlecry should be "Shut up, download the free browser, and let us watch everything you do." Because we're not your customers anymore. Stockholders and advertisers are.
Your next poll: How can (browser not Firefox) bring you ads and save you money when shopping?" That is what you want to ask, so do it.
@Tock @theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
countdown to:
1. more AI in Firefox
2. Mozilla drops Gecko in favour of Chromium
3. with all possibility of ad blocking disabled
4. certainty the massive international user base of people *just like them* will show up any day now! just you wait!! -
Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs
It's probably a good idea in general to let the AI killswitch disable all AI stuff (incl. future one) by default, but still allow the user to selectively re-enable features like translations (without having to use about:config) -
@Tock @theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
countdown to:
1. more AI in Firefox
2. Mozilla drops Gecko in favour of Chromium
3. with all possibility of ad blocking disabled
4. certainty the massive international user base of people *just like them* will show up any day now! just you wait!!@davidgerard @theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social Such a waste, too. Years of standards fighting, differentiation with Gecko, then Quantum (see? I WAS a follower all along!) and being a model of what Open Source stewardship could mean for the larger Internet.
RIP Mozilla, if you thought you were floundering as a Not for Profit Corp, you're worse than useless as a Marketing Agency.
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@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I fixed it.
Do you want AI slop in Firefox?
@theorangetheme @davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs the whole c-level of mozilla looks sketchy af
thinking of it, firing every cis man and building up again from there wouldnt probably the worst move
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Fireslop.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs I really love the local on-device translation, "AI" or not.
I think this question follows a fundamental misunderstanding of the AI toggle. I want I do not want to ship off my browser data to any AI company (including Mozzila), and that would be the toggle I would look for.
If Firefox/Mozilla came out with a on-device local-only LLM I would personally be more receptive. The main issue for a browser is that it should be a browser, and also not ship all my data off for harvesting by AI slop companies.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs maybe it shouldn't be an AI kill switch but instead a generative AI kill switch or an LLM kill switch.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs
Translation is a useful service and not really in scope for the kill switch IMO, though judging by the extremely spicy discussion here, option two might be the ideal choice -
@firefoxwebdevs But wait… what if the developers used AI to help develop the code in the browser itself? Does that mean AI kill switch purists should then rather not even use the product at all?
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs the "no AI" kill switch should turn off every feature based on machine learning, and list them. The list should contain specific, simple, trustworthy (verifiable) documentation about specifically which ML tech underpins the feature; how the training corpora were gathered (from whom, and with what consent); how and who vetted the model inputs; and the energy costs/environmental impacts of keeping the models up to date.
This is an opportunity to empower and to educate.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
Honestly, just remove and keep AI out of Firefox entirely, also please just stop the AI Slop enshitification.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs rather than mess about with kill switches for a product most people don't want, strip all that AI crap out of the browser and make extensions that integrate with various LLM models so those who do want it can add it but don't force this slop on everyone by default
I've been a FF user since the beta days and have now switched to Librewolf because of the AI and ad tech bloat in FF
It makes me sad to see FF decline in this way & become another AI bloated browser
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@firefoxwebdevs The frame of this question is risible.
I am begging you to just make a web browser.
Make it the best browser for the open web. Make it a browser that empowers individuals. Make it a browser that defends users against threats.
Do not make a search engine. Do not make a translation engine. Do not make a webpage summariser. Do not make a front-end for an LLM. Do not make a client-side LLM.
Just. Make. A. Web. Browser.
Please.
