Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs @mdavis it is less likely to be a stumble and more likely introduced in bad faith by a PM to derail the process
Btw, there's meaningful discussion to be had about the biases encoded in ML-based translation -- try translating "the scientist" and "the teacher" into a language with gendered nouns. But that is separate from the widespread opposition to LLMs and everyone knows it.
@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs @mdavis (that being said I voted for "yes but let me turn it back on". That's what we want: a modular browser with granular settings. "Ha ha you can have translation but only if you want the rest of the AI" would be a dark pattern.)
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs irrelevant. Firefox was dead the moment you jumped the fraudulent llm train. Only idiots will use Firefox in the future. Go to hell, assholes!
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social translation should be in an entirely separate extension, and not included in the base browser. same for the LLM garbage. get it out of my browser.
if you want, you can prompt me to install it. once. -
@firefoxwebdevs But wait… what if the developers used AI to help develop the code in the browser itself? Does that mean AI kill switch purists should then rather not even use the product at all?
@mdavis@mastodon.social @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social this is correct. i would rather not use the product at all. i am actively rejecting the use of software that has a policy of accepting code generated by LLMs in favor of software that has a policy of rejecting that code.
i would much prefer Firefox not only to not have AI features, but not to include AI-generated code either. -
The Firefox AI "kill switch" is not "complicated" except insofar as it's incoherent. it's not "undisclosed nuance" except insofar as it's incoherent.
the "kill switch" doesn't exist.
this is important to keep in mind. once you remember that NONE OF THIS EXISTS, you will realise that every one of the dilemmas you posit is an imaginary problem that follows from incoherent postulates.
e.g. "AI kill switch purists" is not a coherent postulation because the "kill switch" does not exist.
the "kill switch" is a hypothetical proposed in this post:
https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115740500373677782
the "kill switch" is a proposal to satisfy the demand for an opt-in by providing an opt-out. you might think that's a failure to respect the question, and you might even begin to suspect the proposal was in bad faith.
note that Jake, in presenting the kill switch and calling it a kill switch and getting it into all the papers as a kill switch, says he's uncomfortable with the name he's publicised it as. you might think that's oddly incompetent for literally a PR (devrel) person.
the concept as presented imposes multiple false dilemmas.
the LLM stuff should *incredibly obviously* be an extension. this is the purest possible opt-in, despite jake's past attempts to muddy the meaning of "opt-in".
making it an extension is also eminently feasible. There is literally no technical reason it needs to be a browser built-in.
this suggests the reasons are not in any way technical. some person with a name, who has yet to be named, dictated that it would be a built-in. so that's what Mozilla is going with.
why Mozilla went hard AI is entirely unclear. this would have been late 2024? we have no idea who was inspired with this bad idea nor why they were so incredibly keen to force it into the browser.
nor is it clear what Mozilla will do for external LLM services when the AI bubble runs out of venture capital and pops in a year or so, most of the chatbot APIs shut down and whatever remains is 10x the cost at least. but that's a problem for 2027's bonus, not 2026's.
note how the poll provides no option for "no LLM functions built-in to Firefox", in a pathetically transparent attempt to synthesize consent. jake wants to use this poll as evidence of what the user base wants, deliberately leaving out the option he knows directly a lot of them want.
and in conclusion:
1. solve the "kill switch" naming problem by branding it the "brutal and bloody robot murder switch with an option on the executives responsible".
2. make all this shit an extension like they should have a year ago.
3. and your little translator too.@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
In my admittedly limited experience with exceptionally dubious features that the users don't want, but the executives do, it's also not truly an 'AI kill switch' until it also fires the people responsible for putting 'AI' into the thing in the first place.
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@dante seems like a valid question to me. I mean it's literally a different tool than prompted genAI, and the definition of "AI" keeps shifting.
@joshg this is pedantic. this is attempting to get around the broader concern which is that people are fucking tired of getting LLM bullshit shoved in their faces in every app. Just gut it. Gut all of it. No one cares about this definitional shit. Firefox has addons for a reason
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs whatever, you guys clearly aren't interested in feedback, or actually making the browser good. Don't bother adding a "kill switch", I'm just gonna stick to librewolf or switch to something chromium based. -
@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
In my admittedly limited experience with exceptionally dubious features that the users don't want, but the executives do, it's also not truly an 'AI kill switch' until it also fires the people responsible for putting 'AI' into the thing in the first place.
@theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs that's the other missing poll option, yes
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@theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs that's the other missing poll option, yes
@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs "No AI, and Anthony Enzor-DeMeo resigns in disgrace."
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Make them all an extension one can download and use with single click. Problem solved.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Welcome to Waterfox.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Missing the option "Remove all so-called 'AI' elements from Firefox and let those who want them install them as extensions"
But at this point I've already voted that way by uninstalling Firefox from all devices.
Cosigning everything written here: https://www.waterfox.com/blog/no-ai-here-response-to-mozilla/
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@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs "No AI, and Anthony Enzor-DeMeo resigns in disgrace."
@theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs also the new AI CMO. also whichever person started this ball rolling and got Anthony in.
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@theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs also the new AI CMO. also whichever person started this ball rolling and got Anthony in.
@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I fixed it.
Do you want AI slop in Firefox?
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
Make it entirely opt-in, not built-in an default-enabled.
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The Firefox AI "kill switch" is not "complicated" except insofar as it's incoherent. it's not "undisclosed nuance" except insofar as it's incoherent.
the "kill switch" doesn't exist.
this is important to keep in mind. once you remember that NONE OF THIS EXISTS, you will realise that every one of the dilemmas you posit is an imaginary problem that follows from incoherent postulates.
e.g. "AI kill switch purists" is not a coherent postulation because the "kill switch" does not exist.
the "kill switch" is a hypothetical proposed in this post:
https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115740500373677782
the "kill switch" is a proposal to satisfy the demand for an opt-in by providing an opt-out. you might think that's a failure to respect the question, and you might even begin to suspect the proposal was in bad faith.
note that Jake, in presenting the kill switch and calling it a kill switch and getting it into all the papers as a kill switch, says he's uncomfortable with the name he's publicised it as. you might think that's oddly incompetent for literally a PR (devrel) person.
the concept as presented imposes multiple false dilemmas.
the LLM stuff should *incredibly obviously* be an extension. this is the purest possible opt-in, despite jake's past attempts to muddy the meaning of "opt-in".
making it an extension is also eminently feasible. There is literally no technical reason it needs to be a browser built-in.
this suggests the reasons are not in any way technical. some person with a name, who has yet to be named, dictated that it would be a built-in. so that's what Mozilla is going with.
why Mozilla went hard AI is entirely unclear. this would have been late 2024? we have no idea who was inspired with this bad idea nor why they were so incredibly keen to force it into the browser.
nor is it clear what Mozilla will do for external LLM services when the AI bubble runs out of venture capital and pops in a year or so, most of the chatbot APIs shut down and whatever remains is 10x the cost at least. but that's a problem for 2027's bonus, not 2026's.
note how the poll provides no option for "no LLM functions built-in to Firefox", in a pathetically transparent attempt to synthesize consent. jake wants to use this poll as evidence of what the user base wants, deliberately leaving out the option he knows directly a lot of them want.
and in conclusion:
1. solve the "kill switch" naming problem by branding it the "brutal and bloody robot murder switch with an option on the executives responsible".
2. make all this shit an extension like they should have a year ago.
3. and your little translator too.@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thoughtful response, emphasizing points that are an important part of the discussion.
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@firefoxwebdevs then I think it comes down to- is translation specifically considered "AI" by your own definition (not personally your definition, how it is treated internally by Mozilla)?
If it is treated and handled as "AI" then yes, following the idea of including what is defined by Mozilla as "AI" into the "AI kill switch" it should be disabled when the "kill switch" is toggled.
@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 I’m kindof amazed that Mozilla can’t distinguish which changes led to the backlash. I think that’s why this whole thing feels more like putting on a show than like a genuine attempt at reform.
The timing alone makes it clear that the builtin translation was not the issue. Sure, moving it to a plugin would be an improvement, and requiring user action to enable it would be smaller improvement, but that was the case before.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs If you weren't cramming the frothy mixture of auto complete and copyright infringement you call "AI" into everything you make despite no-one who uses it wanting it, you wouldn't have to ask this question.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs doing a great job at regaining users' trust there, I see
In other news, you've done such a great job at regaining my trust that I've switched browsers to anything but Firefox. Well done, Mozilla.
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@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 I’m kindof amazed that Mozilla can’t distinguish which changes led to the backlash. I think that’s why this whole thing feels more like putting on a show than like a genuine attempt at reform.
The timing alone makes it clear that the builtin translation was not the issue. Sure, moving it to a plugin would be an improvement, and requiring user action to enable it would be smaller improvement, but that was the case before.
️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The main issue is Mozilla as an organization embracing the lie that LLMs possess something resembling human intelligence, welcoming the full variety of harms caused by their implementation and use, integrating their use into unnecessary “features”, and enabling those “features” both by default and reverting them to enabled after updates.️
