It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
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It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp reminds me of my friends who care about animal welfare but do research on health impacts of different diets "Putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of eating animals, I'm interested in evaluating whether non-vegan products like meat could be useful for my health."
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@Joshsharp I find it deeply disappointing too, especially when I see it coming from people who are in control of their own working conditions.
Sometimes I think the intent is to find a way of engaging with people who clearly do not subscribe to those moral and ethical concerns (you'll never convince someone who doesn't care about the environmental impact to see the environmental impact as a dealbreaker) in order to convey that there are still insurmountable problems/shortcomings
@Joshsharp But personally, I find this just gives a framing that encourages an imagined future where things have fewer technical problems is fine, when (to me at least), the kind of LLM bollocks everybody's pushing right now would not be the slightest bit desirable even if it had no technical problems.
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It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp
What that literally means is, "I don't care that LLMs are obviously immoral and unethical, I want to use them anyway if they can be useful in my work." -
It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
Any paragraph which starts with "Like" is inevitably a cheap shot.
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It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp Well said!
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@Joshsharp But personally, I find this just gives a framing that encourages an imagined future where things have fewer technical problems is fine, when (to me at least), the kind of LLM bollocks everybody's pushing right now would not be the slightest bit desirable even if it had no technical problems.
@Cheeseness I think you're totally right in your perception of their intent. And yeah, the end result still doesn't help anybody. If you've already ceded the ground that the ethics are irrelevant, in order to debate their practical value, inevitably you'll lose the argument on that point too. Well put!
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My dude, if there are obvious moral and ethical implications, how are you able to "put them aside" so easily? I just don't get it
@Joshsharp i can put them aside *temporarily*, while i make the argument that they don't work from a pragmatic perspective. because if they don't work, the only reason to use them is for the moral and ethical implications…
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My dude, if there are obvious moral and ethical implications, how are you able to "put them aside" so easily? I just don't get it
@Joshsharp you don't get far in the tech industry if you're not able to
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@Joshsharp
Honest answer: The same way that I'm writing this on a phone which both in the production process and as a software-social ecosystem has obvious moral and ethical implications. Or how I use retirement investment funds which likely prop up the price of many terrible corporations. Nothing's perfect and we make imperfect choices of balancing comfort of life with the world impact every single day. -
@Joshsharp you don't get far in the tech industry if you're not able to
@Dangerous_beans probably explains why, despite being in tech, I am also poor
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"but other than that, mrs lincoln, how was the play?"
@paul_ipv6 @Joshsharp I love this quote so much.
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It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp computers make copying near-free. LLMs are just another step in that. They bring no new dilemmas.
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@Dangerous_beans probably explains why, despite being in tech, I am also poor
@Joshsharp yeah, it was my problem too
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It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp I think those doing it(atleast here and the ones I've read), are evaluating the usefulness of the technology by itself.
The point is not to throw away the ethics, but to understand if the technology is worth it at all.
If so, an ethical implementation, e.g. a coding LLM that trains on and generates boilerplate can be considered.
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It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp I understand that your main point is that the moral and ethical problems alone are enough to stay away from LLMs, but are you also making the secondary point that LLMs are obviously useful for people's work?
I ask because in your analogy the answer is that yes, the immoral and unethical practice of breaking and entering actually would be useful for acquiring people's stuff.
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My dude, if there are obvious moral and ethical implications, how are you able to "put them aside" so easily? I just don't get it
@Joshsharp Well, I see it as a manner of approaching things that's similar to your typical anti-social politician. -
It really bums me out that I keep seeing blog posts from technical people like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical implications of LLMs, I'm interested in evaluating whether they can be useful for my work."
Like "putting aside the obvious moral and ethical concerns of breaking into my neighbours' houses, I'm interested in evaluating whether this can be useful for acquiring other people's valuables."
@Joshsharp Today I needed a network diagram. I never liked drawing on a computer. It is a mindless and annoying task.
Instead, I drew it roughly on paper. Then took a picture, uploaded it to Gemini, and told Gemini to make it look neat and professional. What I got back was done after one spelling correction.
What are the moral and ethical implications of that? It definitely did work from a pragmatic perspective.
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@Joshsharp I understand that your main point is that the moral and ethical problems alone are enough to stay away from LLMs, but are you also making the secondary point that LLMs are obviously useful for people's work?
I ask because in your analogy the answer is that yes, the immoral and unethical practice of breaking and entering actually would be useful for acquiring people's stuff.
@oantolin the analogy is not meant to be read as literally as that
But if you want to be literal, I think it does fit - LLMs and breaking and entering do both give you stuff, at the cost of harms to others, and you don't have a lot of control over what that stuff is... Probably it's mostly pretty commonplace stuff. And if you keep doing it, eventually there won't be anything valuable left to steal -
My dude, if there are obvious moral and ethical implications, how are you able to "put them aside" so easily? I just don't get it
@Joshsharp
I would say we all (industrial countries, middle-class) have years of practice in putting aside moral and ethical implications of our way of life. AI is just another instance of the same problem.
In our wealth and our perceived superiority, we convince one another that we have a right to prosperity at the expense of others and cling to our privileges. Our media, politics, culture, and lifestyle enable this cognitive dissonance. Fuel by greed and capitalism. -
@Joshsharp computers make copying near-free. LLMs are just another step in that. They bring no new dilemmas.
@StOnSoftware @Joshsharp Well, they spew out junk data while consuming huge amounts of electricity and cooling water. Freely copying is one thing, jacking up people's electricity bills while further heating the climate is quite another.
Using an LLM instead of your head is like using a Learjet to commute to work.